Grace and Salvation

I have been looking into the topic of Grace and the roll it plays in salvation lately and have spent some time in my mind contrasting the Mormon view with that of the Christians. I’m going to try to put my thoughts on paper here the best I can about this subject. Let’s start by quoting a 2001 Mormon General Conference talk. Keep in mind the highlighted section when reading the story of the school boy and see if you can find the contradiction.

"I am profoundly grateful for the principle of saving grace. Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone, “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

Some years ago, President Gordon B. Hinckley told “something of a parable” about “a one room school house in the mountains of Virginia where the boys were so rough no teacher had been able to handle them.

“Then one day an inexperienced young teacher applied. He was told that every teacher had received an awful beating, but the teacher accepted the risk. The first day of school the teacher asked the boys to establish their own rules and the penalty for breaking the rules. The class came up with 10 rules, which were written on the blackboard. Then the teacher asked, ‘What shall we do with one who breaks the rules?’

“ ‘Beat him across the back ten times without his coat on,’ came the response.

“A day or so later, … the lunch of a big student, named Tom, was stolen. ‘The thief was located—a little hungry fellow, about ten years old.’

“As Little Jim came up to take his licking, he pleaded to keep his coat on. ‘Take your coat off,’ the teacher said. ‘You helped make the rules!’

“The boy took off the coat. He had no shirt and revealed a bony little crippled body. As the teacher hesitated with the rod, Big Tom jumped to his feet and volunteered to take the boy’s licking.

“ ‘Very well, there is a certain law that one can become a substitute for another. Are you all agreed?’ the teacher asked.

“After five strokes across Tom’s back, the rod broke. The class was sobbing. ‘Little Jim had reached up and caught Tom with both arms around his neck. “Tom, I’m sorry that I stole your lunch, but I was awful hungry. Tom, I will love you till I die for taking my licking for me! Yes, I will love you forever!”
"James E. Faust, “The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope,” Ensign, Nov 2001, 18)

The first part of the quote establishes the LDS view on salvation and the roll grace plays in it. He chooses to quote 2 Nephi 25:23 that says, “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

Notice the end of the story. Tom, who is obviously a representation of Christ, volunteered to take the punishment for the small boy. The boy did nothing to deserve this intercession but Tom gave it willingly despite the wrong done by the boy. There was no works involved, no “after all we can do”. Instead, the only thing the small boy did was acknowledge (after the punishment has been handed out) he sinned and proclaim his love and gratitude for Tom and what he did for him forever.

This story seems to line up more with the Christian view

Romans 10:9-10

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Foust goes on the quote another Mormon leader by saying…

With reference to our mortal acts and the Atonement, President J. Reuben Clark Jr. contributed this valuable insight when he said:

“I feel that [the Savior] will give that punishment which is the very least that our transgression will justify. I believe that he will bring into his justice all of the infinite love and blessing and mercy and kindness and understanding which he has. …

“And on the other hand, I believe that when it comes to making the rewards for our good conduct, he will give us the maximum that it is possible to give, having in mind the offense which we have committed.”

If the above statement is true, then there is no hope for salvation as a member of the Mormon church. It is a LDS belief that “no unclean thing can dwell with God”. If that is true, and the power of grace does not kick in until you have done “all that you can do”, then where is your hope? Can you ever really say that you have exhausted all of your resources and done absolutely everything in your power to live the “law” and be perfect (sinless)? If your answer to this is no, then it is my hope that you will see the freedom and peace Christ offers everyone in the Bible. Paul sums it up so well in the following versus.

Romans 3:23

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 5:8

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 10:13

for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Christ often speaks of the folly found in trying to keep the law as a way to gain salvation. It is not found in the law, but in a sincere belief in Him who died for us even though we can do nothing to deserve or re-pay such a gift.

In the 29 years I spent in the Mormon church, there was never peace in my life. No amount of work or effort was ever enough. Instead of encouragement, reprimand and threats of Satan’s power to control were often given as motivation to do more.

Does Christ want us to be good, moral, and righteous people? Of course He does. The question that begs to be asked then is; are we striving to do and be those things by trying to live by the law and be sin free? Or, are we alive in Christ and because we recognize the grace given to us once we believe on His name, there is nothing we can do to earn or deserve what has been already given to us?

The idea that we can in some way, earn part of our own salvation diminishes the sacrifice made on the cross and limits the power God has to save us.

I see the following verses as Christ's direct words to people who put too much emphasis on the law like Mormons and many other legalistic religions.

Matthew 11:28-30

28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

It seems like I keep reading about fruits and vines lately so I thought I would post something that came to my mind this morning. I think everyone knows the phrase, “by their fruits you will know them”. It is a very common phrase in the LDS church and other religious circles. It is something that is used in both a positive and a negative context and can often be self serving as I'm sure some will say that about what I am going to say.

While reading the following passage I had a moment of clarity which is happening more often.



Matthew 7:15-20

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

17Likewise EVERY good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit, and a bad tree CANNOT bear good fruit.

19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

I’d like to focus some attention on verses 17 and 18. I added some emphasis to highlight some key words. If we are to believe these verses, then I think all would agree on the basic premise that good tree = good fruit and bad tree = bad fruit.

The question I had was; where does the tree get its nourishment? The food it eats is in the soil where it is planted and the roots are what not only anchors the tree but feeds it. Following basic logic, if the food in the soil is not good or sufficient then the tree will be weak and lacking in the ability to produce fruit at all since all of its energy must be spent in just staying alive. If the roots stay at the surface and do not go deep into the soil then it will be vulnerable when droughts, storms and other problems come, which is inevitable.

Understanding this we can also conclude that…

Good food+deep roots = strong tree & good fruit
Bad food+shallow roots = weak tree & bad fruit or no fruit at all

Why am I taking my time to explain this? Because I think it has a direct relationship to Mormonism. I don’t think it is a coincidence that Jesus, in the same breath, warns us about false prophets and then tells us how to discern who they are. I have spent almost a year now talking about the Mormon tree’s roots, what it eats, and the fruit it ultimately bears. I have had people ask me in the past, and I think I even blogged about it once, what were some good things in the LDS church? I used to try to find a few “good fruits” but have come to understand that it is incapable of bringing forth good fruits because the food it eats (doctrine, teachings and rituals) contain poison that cripples it. It is further damaged by its roots (history) that are rotten and now only remain on the surface to try to survive.

Again talking about fruit, Matthew 12:33-37 says:

33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.

34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.

35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

I know that Mormons look to their leaders, past as present, with adoration and honor but this can only be because they do not know what their past really looked like and who these men were and are still today. It is my hope that some will be filled with enough curiosity to look for themselves at what their church is really founded on and what kind of soil they are taking their “nourishment” from.

“Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks”. I can only imagine how black and diseased the hearts of the LDS prophets are to have started and now continue a church founded on false doctrine and deceit. One day, those who aided in the proliferation of the Mormon church will have to give an account of the things they said and did. This blog is my attempt to undo the part I played in "spreading the gospel" so I will not be condemned by my words while I was LDS.

I cannot say enough how glad I am to be free from that toxic religion. While my tree is not yet fully healed from years of malnourishment, it is starting to become stronger and the roots are searching deeper into rich soil to find living water.

Mormon Temple Prayer List

Last week I found out the members of my family were putting my family’s names on the LDS temple prayer list. Due to some interesting circumstances, I felt compelled to send them all an email requesting that they refrain from doing that again. Below is the letter I sent them today...

Dear Family,

It has come to my attention that some people have been putting our family’s names on the LDS temple prayer list. While I’m sure it was done with good intentions, I must request that the religious wishes of our family be respected. In no way do we agree with the teachings and doctrines found in Mormonism including the need for prophets today or temples. When Christ died on the cross, the Bible says that the veil in the temple was rent from top to bottom and the temple was destroyed. Then in Acts 17 we read that “God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands”.

In the temple endowment, when Adam prays at the alter he made after being removed from the Garden of Eden, His prayer is answered but not by God. He prays, “Oh God hear the words of my mouth.” but Satan is the one who answers him stating that he is the God of this world. Later in the session, that same prayer is repeated at an alter in the endowment room and then those names who are put on the prayer list are placed on the alter and prayed for. It is my opinion that, just as it is in the movie, that prayer is answered by the wrong person. God does not dwell there and there is very little justification for modern temple worship unless it comes from the self serving mouths of LDS prophets. Hebrews 1:1-2 teaches us that God, in the last days, speaks to us by his Son and that Christ was the last prophet.

(KJV)
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

(NIV)
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

The prophets of the Old Testament spoke of Him and He is the last word. After his death he sent his disciples out to preach His gospel and none other. (Galatians 1:9) The apostles preached endlessly about watching out for false prophets and I am beginning to see why.

It is for these reasons and many more that we do not support or sustain the doctrines of Mormonism. It is our wish that our names be kept off of the temple prayer lists and we trust that this request will be honored.

Peace be unto you this Christmas!

Shackled by the Very Religion That Promises Freedom

I have had a good couple of months off from blogging so I’m not sure how many people will come read my blog now but that’s ok with me. To be honest, I have not had much of a desire to dig up old Mormon crap anymore so I took a step back to clear my mind. I think I’m done with the grieving process and really could care less about my past in Mormonism.

I now find myself feeling sorry for those that sacrifice happiness today for what they think will bring them “Eternal Life” when they die. It is my belief that they will be sorely disappointed when then they pass from this life to the next when they see how much more they could have enjoyed life living for today instead of what "could be" tomorrow. Many live miserable lives, shackled by the very religion that promises freedom. Blinded by the rhetoric spewed from the mouths of their leaders, they cannot see what they are missing in the world around them and do not realize that they hold the key to unlock the shackles that bind them.

For those willing to take off the blindfold for even a few moments and look outside of the prison window, a new world is opened to them. Light shines on their faces, bringing them warmth and comfort. The key glistens in the darkness. The more they look, the more they begin to see and their shady existence becomes evident. The outside world calls to them and even though they place the blindfold over their eyes again to try to block out the light, they can never forget what they had seen and it replays in their mind. Those who choose to go back to their old ways will try to convince themselves that it is better to stay bound and that they are truly happier that way but what they don’t realize is that others can see their misery.

Those who cannot ignore the daylight that now penetrates their lives offering clarity never experienced before often choose to take hold of the key and loosen the binds placed on them. Not sure of what the future holds, they step out of the darkness into light never looking back. For those who have spent most of, if not all of their lives involved in Mormonism, life outside is not an easy place to be at first but the chance to really discover who you are while finding your own path through life is certainly worth it.

I have decided to continue to maintain this blog in hopes that I will help at least one person to remove their shackles and start their journey to real freedom outside of a religion that wants nothing more then to keep you in the dark as to what they are really about.

How much did they know?

That is a question I keep asking myself but I’m not sure I will ever find the answer. The pro-noun “they” has taken on different meaning throughout my Mormon exodus.

At first it referred to early church leaders like Brigham Young, Martin Harris, John Taylor and others. Was Joseph Smith the “lone gunman” who made all of this up and deceived everyone else or did he have help from these knowing conspirators?

What about the leaders of today? We know by his own admission that Hinckley did not know much about church history or doctrine because he made a habit of reminding us in interviews. What about Tommy Monson and his cohorts? How much do they know? Are they knowingly deceiving their loyal followers today? Do they have a “president’s book” like in the movie National Treasure 2 where each president writes down their secrets and things they need to keep hidden from everyone else?

Then you have local leaders and mission presidents. What do they know? After all, the prophet has told members not to write to him and the apostles any more for clarification on doctrinal issues and that this should be handled on a local level. Does that mean that bishops and stake presidents are really better equipped to answer questions about contradicting points of doctrine and history or do they know these local leaders will keep up the company image and perpetuate the lies?

The “they” group that I keep wondering about now is my parents (they don’t read this blog or at least they don’t admit to it). Neither one is really willing to talk to me about what I have found, especially my mom. The one time I brought up the fact that there are multiple accounts of the first vision that all contradict one another she did not take it well and accused me of attacking her faith and told me not to talk about it anymore. I don’t think she had ever heard that before so I wonder just what she does know. On the same note, my dad has been a little more open about talking about it but seemed equally confused when I mentioned that his beloved Hinckley openly said that he did not know that Mormons believe that God was once a man. My dad was shocked that he would say that because he knows that this is a core doctrine of Mormonism.

I would love to find out exactly what “negative”, “non-faith promoting” truth they know because they never shared any of it with me. If it turns out that they knew even a fraction of the things I know now and never felt the need to share them with me so I could come to my own conclusion about them, then I don’t know if I would be able to forgive them for the years I lost and the guilt I felt while trying to live in a religion that did not teach the truth and forced me to be someone I was not. Not respecting my intelligence enough to give me all the information they had to let me make up my own mind is an insult.

Why are they so afraid of what I have to say? Are they frightened that I will say something that will shake their testimony? If they are, then what does that say about their religious conviction?

How much did they know?

Irony and Contradictions

I prefer to post original ideas on my blog and try to refrain from posting exact ideas from other people, this list was too good to pass up. A member of Post-Mormon.org made this list of Irony and Contradictions they see in the Mormon church.

-300 pound Mormons, on their way back from the desert bar at the buffet for the second time, who look down their noses at the marathon runner who is finishing off her modest meal with the glass of red wine her doctor has told her will improve her heath.

-About to leave missionaries who are celebrated by the largest crowds of their obscure lives, while simultaneously being told that the rush they feel in the midst of this momentarily adulation is due to the fact that they are finally "keeping their eye single to the Glory of God." The honors of men have nothing to do with what they feel. Ditto for the GAs.

-Feeling confident for years that I was so much better off relying upon the arm of God than the arm of flesh, and then finding that the arm of God was in fact the flabby old arms of Packer, GBH et al.


-Having to go to tithing settlement to "settle" with the lord, yet the church's finances go unchecked.

-Maybe the biggest irony is becoming one of those apostates I thought were all bitter and miserable, but being happier than I ever have in my life.

-Whenever I said "I know this church is true" there was always a nagging doubt inside. It was a slight physical twang in my chest. It would have sent the polygraph needle swinging. Now, whenever I say "The church is a fraud." I feel completely confident and comfortable in my answer.

-The boiling frog parable: Sin gets you a little bit at a time, without you realizing it; and before you know it, you are dead.
Contrast that with:
Milk before meat: New members and investigators can't handle the whole truth. They need to be spoon-fed a little bit at a time until they have a testimony.

-On the one hand claiming that gospel principles are "beautiful in their simplicity." On the other hand, when things get messy or don't make sense, "the gospel isn't supposed to be logical.”

-I love the contradiction between the 'plain and precious truths" and "Well, we don't know the answer to that question. It will all make sense in the next life."

-Free agency applies except in the church, then it is all about unquestioning obedience.

-Feelings ("the witness of the HG") but you can only believe those feelings if they tell you that church is true!

-Secret Combinations vs. The Temple Ceremony

-The "Restoration" of the "Apostasy." I mean what other church is better at changing ordinances, teaching false doctrine, pretending prophecy, and modifying their foundation than the good old Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?!!!

-While the modern mainstream LDS church abhors and condemns any sexual activity outside of marriage, 19th-century church leaders were having sex with up to dozens of women to whom they were not legally married.

-And while 19th-century church leaders proclaimed for decades that polygamy was God's form of marriage, and that polygamy was necessary for salvation, and that monogamy was concocted by pagan Romans etc.---the modern LDS church is possibly the most anti-polygamous religion on earth.

-We have prophets, seers and revelators up the wazoo but receive no prophecies or revelations.

-Mormons who will NEVER go to see the Passion of the Christ movie because it is rated R. Wouldn’t the Bible be rated R?

Eight Simple Rules That Led Me Out Of Mormonism

I am working on a few posts but have not been able to get them to the point where I am comfortable with putting them on this site for you. While I continue to work on those, I will give you this to chew on. I found this written on The Mormon Curtain by someone named XTBM. It was done back in 2005 and I could not agree more with it. I don't really like to post stuff that I have not written but hey, why re-invent the wheel?

Eight Simple Rules That Led Me Out Of Mormonism:

Rule 1: Just because someone says something doesn't mean what he/she says is true

I apply this rule to everyone, regardless of intelligence, point of view, etc. Mormon apologists - many highly educated - have all kinds of explanations for seeming contradictions in Mormonism's history. Some people accept these at face value "Oh, see, there are reasonable explanations for all of these problems!" But for a person who is guided by Rule #1, explanations are only as good as the paper they are written on! A rule that leads nicely into Rule 2…

Rule 2: Just because someone intelligent believes something is true doesn't mean it is true

If a high level of intelligence were the most important factor of discovering religious truth, then all - or a majority of - highly intelligent people in the world would hold similar religious beliefs. As it is, the world of religious beliefs is fragmented into thousands of factions, each with its own set of apologists spinning a web of logic designed to entrap their perception of truth upon its strands. There are a lot of smart people in this world who are enlisted in the ranks of the defense of what are often conflicting religious beliefs - quite obviously, not all of them can be right!

Rule 3: Reality-based belief is better than theory-based belief

"Theory" can be used to support almost any belief because all one has to do is come up with an explanation that falls in the realm of plausibility in order for the breath of life to fill a theory's lungs - and plausibility is not all that tough of a standard to reach.

"Reality", on the other hand, is a different beast altogether. The path from "theory" into "reality" is strewn with the lifeless corpses of theories that couldn't withstand the intense scrutiny required for passage. It isn't easy to distinguish between the two because theory-based beliefs are often passed off as being reality-based, but there is value in being aware of when a belief is based in theory as opposed to fact - at the least it helps one avoid the pitfall of holding too tightly to a belief that ultimately ends up being an illusion.

Mormonism is a religion that is high on theory-based belief and short on reality-based belief. The following quote by Daniel Peterson last year in regards to the lack of evidence supporting the Book of Mormon highlights this principle as it relates to the Book of Mormon:

"There is, thus far, little in the way of specific archaeological evidence -- taking archaeological in the sense of artifactual -- for the Book of Mormon. The NHM altars in Yemen may be the best we've got, along with the general accuracy of 1 Nephi's portrayal of Lehi's route along the Arabian coast (via the Valley of Lemuel and the River of Laban, and then through Nahom) to Old World Bountiful. There is, however, considerable philological evidence within the Book of Mormon itself suggestive of its antiquity, and there is a great deal of ancient evidence, artifactual and otherwise, from both the Near East and Mesoamerica, that is consistent with the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon in very specific and striking ways."

Put another way, there is, thus far, little (read: NOTHING) in terms of "reality-based" information to support the Book of Mormon, but there is considerable "theory-based" stuff out there - spun by none other than your friendly, neighborhood apologists.

Rule 4: The definition of "Faith" is NOT ignoring all evidence that is contrary to what you believe

"Faith" is perhaps the single most abused concept in Mormonism. All one has to do is have enough "faith" and the most serious issues facing Mormonism simply fade away into a backdrop of insignificance. The defect is placed with the person, not with the organization - more on that in Rule 5.

But first, for the Biblical definition of faith (this point is about faith as it is presented in Christianity, not on the validity of faith as a principle and the existence of God), let's turn to the oft-quoted standard, Hebrews 11:1 - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." That definition, though, is incomplete without reading the rest of the chapter where faith is framed as an ACTION-BASED word. It gives many examples of people who were spurred to actions because of their faith: Abel offering a sacrifice, Noah preparing an ark, Moses refusing to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, etc.

Nowhere does it mention that faith is ignoring evidence that contradicts your point of view. Faith is belief that leads to action, not belief in something in spite of its contradictions.

Rule 5: Faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed

This rule ties closely with Rule 4 - if faith is belief that leads to action, that faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. After all, if any issue can be dismissed with "faith", then misplaced faith simply becomes a license to believe in error. Scrutinizing information that has the potential to contradict your belief system does not represent a lack of faith; rather, it's a great way to keep "faith" from trapping you into a false paradigm.

If you ask a Mormon why there is "little in the way of specific archaeological evidence…for the Book of Mormon" as Dr. Peterson stated, some will say "it has to be that way - if not, there would be no need for faith!" Faith becomes an escape hatch for belief systems knee-deep in errors.

Rule 6: Spiritual experiences alone do not lead to religious truth

This rule strikes directly at the heart of why many people stay in Mormonism regardless of the issues. People have certain spiritual experiences that they take to mean the Church is "true" beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is not my place or my desire to tell people what God has or hasn't revealed to them, but one thing I strongly believe is that Mormons are not the only people who believe God has revealed the truth to them.

People in religions around the world don't go around dedicating their lives to their religion for trivial reasons - they believe it is for a higher cause. I'm willing to bet that if I went and talked to 10,000 leaders in various religious organizations around the world, a good number of them would give me a similar answer: "I'm only doing the will of God - He as led me here and He has revealed to me the truthfulness of this work. I see His hand in this work."

I'm not God, so I'm not going to pretend I know why this phenomenon exists. But it is apparent that spiritual experiences can result in many, many different interpretations of truth. And, no matter how much a person claims that their spiritual experiences have led them to know their path is the way to truth - and no matter how sincere they are in that belief - that doesn't automatically mean that they are right. And if that's the case, I believe one shouldn't base one's beliefs 100% on spiritual feelings.

Rule 7: Everyone's beliefs are grounded in logic

In the world of Mormonism, logic is often turned into the "bad guy", but the reality is no one can escape logic. People who rely solely on spiritual experiences for the basis of their testimony are relying on logic as well, regardless of whether or not they choose to see it that way. They still have to logically conclude that the spiritual experiences that they've had must mean that the Mormon church is "true". They are using logic to determine that there is NO other possible explanation for their experiences. They are using logic to decide they don't need to consider any other information (i.e. - DNA, archeology, etc) in determining the truthfulness of the Church. Everything that a person believes has to pass through his or her own personal firewall of logic!

Some people claim that "logic and reason will never discover truth." Although this might be true on some levels, I disagree with it as a rule that can be consistently applied to all situations. First, as it relates to Mormonism, I disagree with the unstated assumption that spiritual experiences ALONE are a better way to discover truth - see Rule #6. Second, because even the meaning of spiritual experiences must pass through one's personal system of logic. Finally, I disagree because sometimes (though certainly not always) logic does discover truth. One can use logic and reason to determine the truth about whether or not Joseph Smith married other men's wives, or whether or not he revised revelations, or that the American Indians are primarily (probably even entirely) descendants of Asians, or that the papyrus fragments in existence today were not written in Abraham's time. All of these are truths that have been determined through logic and reason! The real question isn't whether or not these things are true,but what will one do when determining the significance of this information?

Rule 8: I will not allow other people to dictate my life

This rule is what gives meaning to all the other rules - at least in regards to Mormonism. After all, what good is it to know something is false if you aren't willing to abandon the falsehood? Many here have felt the intense pressure applied by family and friends when they discover you no longer believe. Too often, in their eyes, "good" is defined relative to belief in Mormonism - it doesn't really matter what type of life you lead, if you don't believe in Mormonism, you are in the grips of evil!

This outside pressure can vary in intensity depending on one's personal situation and it causes some people to live a life that is not in harmony with their underlying beliefs - an "active" Mormon who doesn't believe in Mormonism's claims of truth. I will not fake belief to appease anyone because as soon as I do so, I have lost control of my life and, at that point, what good is that kind of life?

Each of us at some point must decide if we will live life on our own terms or if we will live it on someone else's terms. For some people, this rule is easy to live by, but for me it has been extremely difficult - and, after reading this board for quite some time now, I don't think I'm the only one who has struggled with this issue. Too many people feel their belief system is superior to your own, even when it is riddled with issues that contradict the "simple rules" that you live by…

Any other rules that you live by that caused you to lose you belief in Mormonism?

So Long, Farewell - parody

While on a Post-Mormon discussion board today, a guy named “Laman & Lemon”, who has been blessed with great wit, wrote a song parody to the Sound of Music tune “So Long, Farewell”. Don’t be afraid to sing as you read it.

There's a sad sort of lying
from the books of our past
And from mo-dern research too
And up in my noggin, there a part of my mind
Is popping up to say "it's poo"
"it's poo"
"it's poo"
Mormon histr'y it tells us
"it's poo"
And logic compels us
"it's poo"
To say goodbye,

"it's poo"

to you!!


So Long, farewell, our feet are stained, good night
I'm shocked, that Joe would lie about his wives

"doot, doo da loot doot doo doot doo- doot do da loot doot doo"


So long, farewell, papyrus showed his lies
It's poo, it's poo, to you and you and you

"doot, doo da loot doot doo doot doo- doot do da loot doot doo"


So long, farewell, offended I am not,
I've ne-ver had beer, cigs, tea or champagne

"doot, doo da loot doot doo doot doo- doot do da loot doot doo"


So long, farewell, I've only "known" my wife
I leave and heave a sigh and say goodbye,
Good bye (I'll have to REALLY gird up my loins to hit THAT high note)

I'm glad to go,
The church has told me lies.
I read, I know
My spirits's on a high

"doot, doo da loot doot doo doot doo- doot do da loot doot doo"


The lies I've put to test and so must you (slowly)
So long, farewell, truth does not change, goodbye,
Goodbye,
Goodbye,
Goodbye!
GOODBYE!!!!! (final goodbye is done by the member/leaders. I doubt they will have the personality to do it)

I love humor like this!

You might be on your way out of Mormonism if....

• Your heart rate increases dramatically every time you buy a coffee.
• The word "apostate" doesn't sound scary anymore, but instead fills you with a sense of pride.
• The word "endowment" makes you cringe far more than any curse word you know of.
• You realize that viewing bits of history that aren't "always helpful" has gone from being troublesome to fascinating.
• You receive nastygrams left by members in the middle of the night.
• 10% of your gross income goes to Fidelity.
• You stop including middle initials when referring to general authorities.
• You smirk when the latest temple dedicatory prayer in Latin America refers to the locals as "the children of Lehi."
• You start finding ways to use temple endowment language in everyday speech.
• You know who Fanny Alger is.
• The merest glance at the Book of Abraham facsimiles causes you to giggle.
• You declare the proverbial oxe to be in the mire from here on out, and start shopping and seeing movies on Sundays.
• You actually like Sundays.
• You watch a movie without even knowing or caring what it's rated.
• The waitress asks if you'd like a margarita, and rather than being offended by the question, you're offended by the low-quality liquor they use.
• If your temple recommend interview doesn't get past the first question.
• You refer to the former church president as "Gordo."
• If you suddenly find all the truth to be "useful."
• You think that girl's tattoo and extra earrings look pretty hot, actually.
• You no longer consider ice tea to be a "hot drink."
• You've actually inquired as to whether you could get a tithing refund.
• TBMs suddenly stop acknowledging you exist.
• You find that when discussing Mormonism online you write "the church" rather than "the Church".
• You walk shamelessly into Starbuck's, hold your head up high, and proclaim "I'll have a grande americano". Then when they ask "Room for cream?" you boldly affirm, "Yes!"
• You've had a few drinks and found that afterwards you curiously didn't turn into an abusing raving lunatic with no self-control.
• You've got a warm feeling inside. This means you either just drank something alcoholic, or you've been fantasizing about life without Mormonism.
• You think it's more important to be a good person than a good Mormon.
• You discover that most people are not looking for "the one true church."
• You wonder just how in the name of all that's holy they got you to believe that God cares what kind of underwear you wear.
• You feel more sympathy for the missionaries than you do pride.
• a relative says what you're doing will impact the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of others including those not yet born
• Another asks what kind of hideous sin you are covering up with this "concern" about church history
• you've met with your bishop and you ask him what he would do if he was bishop of the Nauvoo 4th Ward in 1842 and Joseph Smith asked for his wife or daughter for plural marriage
• you come to the conclusion that the teachings of the LDS church amount to no more than THE PHILOSOPHIES OF MEN MINGLED WITH SCRIPTURE
• Various forms of the word "offend" start appearing in proximity to your name during ward gossip sessions


This list was taken from www.mormoncurtain.com. Some of the information there is not worth a hill of beans and some Mormons will find parts a bit offensive, but there are some sections that are very well done.

Paint Chips- author unknown

Being a part of the Mormon church is like having your whole body painted with many layers. First you get the lessons...there are several coats of doctrine. Then you get baptized and confirmed; two more thick coats of paint. The "paint" is intended to refurbish you as a member, to make you more acceptable to the church, to "God," to others. With each Relief Society or Priesthood lesson, another coat is applied. With each meeting, each interview, the layers of paint build. A trip to the Temple takes several coats and is inspected after each year. Then one day, you realize, you can't move! When you question about your lack of movement, the inspector tells you that your foundation is just fine. You try and sit still and remain the representation of a church "remodeled" member. But the questions come from within.

Then you hear something. A crack. A deep crack begins from the inside out. You doubt yourself because you know if you don't keep quiet, someone will hear! Someone will SEE that your appearance is now damaged. Someone might question if you have been properly taking care of your foundation, etc. Then one day, it happens. Just a small patch breaks away. You see something unusual. You touch it and are surprised. "Is that my skin?" you ask. It feels so alive and real. You begin to gently pick it away, then in a fervor you are scraping as much as you can off. Paint chips are everywhere! Soon you are standing there uncovered. You feel free. You breathe. Your body aches from the release of all that weight. You sigh and do not worry that other "painted folks" will see you without your so called "protective shell" You start the clean up job. Quickly and efficiently you sweep up all the chips and flakes. There are so many of them! It seems overwhelming at first, but then the job is done. All the mess is tossed out. You love your clean house; the way your body can breathe and move and LIVE! You are rearranging your life and then BAM you find a paint chip under the rug. Somehow you missed it...or did you save it? One day you go to get a coat and a few missed chips fall from a sleeve. Little reminders of what used to be. "It may take a while to get rid of all this residue" you say. But that is ok.

The First Big Debate

So, my sisters were in town over the Easter holiday and I suppose it was inevitable that the topic of my disaffection would come up at some point. Every time we would get together, the topic loomed over us but it was never talked about until Sunday night when I actually decided to bight the bullet and say something. What ensued was a 3 hour argument/conversation. I’m still not too sure what to think of it all but here are some highlights.

The conversation started by me asking my oldest sister why she was the only one in our family who chose not to make some kind of contact with me after my letter was sent to the family explaining that I had decided to leave the Morg. She quickly went down the testimony rout and said that I was making a huge mistake and that she “knows” that the church is true. I have heard that phrase so many times in my life that it has lost all meaning for me. What does that even mean? She then said that she had nothing good to say so she chose to say nothing.

Various aspects of my decision to leave were discussed including my decision to go on a mission due to the pressures and stigma attached to someone who does not go and how that affected me. I told them in very tactful but blunt ways that I never really had a testimony and that I only went through the motions for many years. I tried not to get into actual doctrinal issues too much because I did not want to upset them.

The conversation turned to how I believe the church has changed its policies over the years to conform to social pressures. Examples I brought up were the repeal of polygamy, allowing blacks to hold the priesthood and the release of the proclamation of the family. Much to my surprise, my mom actually agreed with me that some were the result of social and political pressures but refuted my claims that the change in who could hold the priesthood had to do with that. My younger sister found the rational that the change to let the blacks hold the priesthood was like unto the church not letting people cook in the church anymore, and that neither one had a huge affect on the truthfulness of the gospel. I of course, had to respectfully disagree.

This same sister told me that I just have to have faith. In response to that I decided to test the waters and I broke out some historical discrepancies. I presented the information regarding the different first vision accounts and asked which one I was supposed to have faith in; the first ones that Joseph’s Myth wrote in 1832 and 1835 or the one that appears in the PoGP which was written in 1838 but not published till 1842? I don’t recall receiving a good answer to that. My mother, with tears welling up in her eyes looked shocked at the information I had just lain down in front of her and she made a point to ask that I not bring up any more information like that claiming that I was attacking her faith.

After a while, they turned their attention to my wife and began to focus their question on her and how a convert could possibility go back on the testimony they had when they were baptized. They held her to a higher standard then me for whatever reason and they could not really understand that you don’t know everything about the church when you are baptized so as you learn, you either gain a greater testimony of the gospel or your belief is torn down. I was then blamed in part for her loss of testimony because I became a negative influence on her.

For me the all-time highlight of the night was when the topic of the Word of Wisdom came up and how I was a bad influence on their kids who were present because I mentioned that I had some tea the other day. In the conversation, my sister actually said that drinking tea was just as bad as molesting a child. When she said that, my jaw dropped to the floor. I don’t understand how anyone could make such a claim. She went on to try to clarify her statement by saying that both are equally bad because they both keep you from being able to enter the temple. What kind of messed up thinking is that? That is like saying it is just as bad to lie to someone then it is to kill them. The church teaches that there are different degrees of sin. Otherwise, there would not be unpardonable sins such as denying the Holy Ghost or murder. Also, if her statement was correct, then you could be excommunicated for the smallest of infractions. I kind of feel sorry for her because that seems like a really crappy way of looking at life. She was even willing to completely disassociate from us if we ever spoke about drinking tea or alcohol around her kids again.

In the end, the night was a mix of both good and bad moments and overall, it was probably a healthy conversation. I was glad that I was finally able to get the issue out in the open and get the first major discussion over with. It is sad to me that they are so closed minded regarding the church. I wish there was some way I could make them open their eyes for just 30 minutes so I could show them the hypocrisy found in the church, especially my mom. I think that if she was really honest with herself she would say that she is not happy in the church but she is in too deep to let that happen.

I am the second of her four kids to leave the church and I am sure she feels like it is her fault in some way but really, she should not feel too bad. Even God lost 1/3 of his kids so why should she think she would fare any better?

Why I Blog

Many wonder why I “waist” my time writing my thoughts on this blog, and I am happy to explain my reasoning for it. To me, it is not a waist of time since ultimately this is the medium I choose to express my thoughts and feelings regarding the Mormon Church and what I have gone through on my path to resignation. Many people who comment and read my blog also maintain their own. So to them I ask, why a blog instead of a personal journal or diary? I know from reading your blogs that most of you use yours as a type of journal or a way to let others know what is going on in their lives and it is a great way to communicate with a large number of people. It is a part of the web based era we live in. The only difference with mine is that I am probably more open with my thoughts then most. I have nothing to hide and see no point in sugar coating anything. What you read here is nothing but pure and raw emotion and it come from the organ behind my eyes that I like to call a brain.

Typically, the brain is what is used to sift through data and it uses past experiences as well as intellect to decipher what information is valid and what is not. I do not claim to be the most intellectual person around but I do know how to think for myself. I have been reading books regarding the history of the church and its doctrine and it has opened my eyes to so many beliefs that contradict each other. The books I have been reading are Teachings of The Prophet Joseph Smith, Mormon Doctrine, Journal of Discourses, Times & Seasons, History of the Church, and others. These are Church publications and I have no reason to doubt that they reflect accurate church beliefs and teachings since they are used on any given Sunday and by church leaders. When speaking on a topic, I will always quote my source so that anyone who doubts my information can look for themselves and come to their own conclusion about the same passages.

The purpose of this blog is not to persuade anyone to leave the Mormon Church. It is not the result of misplaced anger, but rather a vehicle for me to express the hurt and distrust associated with leaving a church that I have spent all my life serving and from my point of view, has lied to me. I acknowledge the fact that many of the things I write about will come off as harsh or shocking to those who believe in Mormonism but I do not and will not apologize for any of it.

Some have asked why I spend my time researching the problems in the Mormon Church instead of focusing on my current beliefs. For the most part, my research has already been finished. My posts are the result of that study but it is impossible for me to write everything in one day. In fact, I started with what in my mind were the more simple issues and am working my way up to the ones that were the main cause of my disaffection. Due to the response I am getting, I will push this week to get more of my thoughts posted. It takes a considerable amount of my time to do this due to the fact that I am the kind of person that speaks only after much thought and I try to be very careful not to speak out against the members of the church, but rather the doctrine, how it has changed and those who work to keep the truth from those that put so much faith in them.

It has been stated that I should spend my time focusing on my current beliefs rather then those I so recently left. In order to understand where I am now spiritually and where I want to go, I must first understand where I have been and what affect that has had on me. To do that, I feel the need to educate myself on the LDS church to find both the positive things that I can take from it and the negative things that I want to make sure do not follow me. At this point, I consider myself an Agnostic. I am uncertain of the existence of God. I am also at the point where I can not trust any religion. It is my belief, that the LDS church betrayed the trust I gave it for more then 25 years and that realization has made it impossible for me to put my trust in another “man of God”. I believe that Mormons do not have a monopoly on morals and righteousness and that I can be a great husband, father and person without it or any other church. I have begun to focus more time and energy into Eastern Philosophy. I have found peace in practicing Yoga and reading and pondering the teachings of Taoism. It quiets my soul and brings peace to my mind.

To those who choose to read the thoughts coming from behind my eyes, Welcome! I honestly appreciate the fact that you have chosen to spend some of your precious time today reading what I have to say. I encourage everyone who feels the need, to please comment. There is no need to be shy. If you choose to stay anonymous, I understand. Your comment is welcome either way. All that I ask is that you follow standard blog etiquette and refrain from personal attacks pointed towards those who also share their religious thoughts and beliefs. I encourage open, intelligent and respectful discussion here. If in your comment, you make reference to a certain quote or doctrine, please note your source so we can also read it and expand our knowledge on the topic at hand. If you would rather send me an email, you can do so knowing that I will not share your comments or identity with anyone else.

May you find peace and happiness in whatever path you choose.

Resignation Day

Well, today we made it official. We drafted our resignation letter and sent it to our Bishop. It is a rather liberating experience but I can't help but feel a bit sad. This closes a very long chapter in my life and opens a new one. It will take time to navigate through the uncharted waters outside of Mormonism but I am anxious to get started. It will be nice having my wonderful wife by my side as we work together to write our new story.

The church has taught me many valuable things and I owe a lot to those that have helped teach me the values and principles I try to live each and every day. Without them, I'm not sure what kind of a person and where I would be today.

I want to express my appreciation to my Bishop and Stake President. They are both great men and they mean a lot to me. I hope that they will be able to accept and understand our reasons for leaving. They have been tremendous examples to me and I hope that I can be like them in many ways.

This by no means puts an end to the feelings of resentment I have regarding the parts of the church that have been hidden from me for some many years. I know the process of getting over those feelings will take time. I am still researching the church's history as I am more intrigued by it then ever. I will continue to express my thoughts on what I find here on this blog as I find it somewhat cathartic.

Letter to my family

Below is a letter that I sent to my family today regarding my recent decision to leave the Mormon Church.

Dear Family,
As I am sure many of you have heard, Amy and I have decided to officially leave the Mormon Church. This is a decision that we made through serious thought, study and prayer and it is a choice that we do not take lightly.
Growing up in the Mormon Church has taught me many valuable lessons which I am very grateful for. It has been the vehicle through which I learned to be the best person I can be, to serve others and love everyone unconditionally. It has taught me to be a leader and gave me the opportunity to learn the Spanish language which has been pivotal to my career. It also brought me my wonderful wife and daughter, whom I would not have were it not for the Church.
My purpose for writing this letter is to help you understand our reasoning for leaving a church that has been a part of our lives for many years. I do not wish to go into too many specific details in this letter as that is not the point. I also do not wish to dissuade you from believing as you wish since that is a principle and right that I take very seriously.
Despite all of the good that has come into our lives by being members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we have come to the realization that the church is not all that it claims to be and is not “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth.” (D&C 1:30) Through our studies of church history, we have found many inconsistencies that we can not accept as something that would be part of God’s “true” church. Our studies consisted of official church publications as well as journals of prominent leaders and members. The history and doctrine that we have been taught over the years is quite different then what was practiced and taught from the beginning of its organization and even through modern times. The lesson manuals of the church today fail to mention many of the unpopular or embarrassing teachings of the early leaders of the church such as polygamy and polyandry. In addition to that, many of the key points in church doctrine have been disproven as science, intellect and knowledge has progressed to the point where it can test them. Examples of this would be the translation of the Book of Abraham, the Kinderhook plates, the lack of historical facts regarding the Book of Mormon and the fact that people are living on the moon (which was taught by Joseph Smith & Brigham Young).
This has been a very long and difficult process for me. As I sifted through countless pages of information, I found my self with very mixed feelings. I had not been comfortable in the church for many years but with no real explanation as to why. This lead to my inactivity for the better part of two years. Despite my indifference to the church at the time, as I began to study its history, I could not help but feel a deep sadness that what I grew up learning was not what I thought it was. That lead to a feeling of confusion as to why I did not already know the things I was reading. I came to the conclusion that that information was, in some way, withheld from me for a reason I could not understand, which led to anger.
I began to ask myself questions. Why would the leadership of the church feel a need to not be upfront and honest with its members regarding the actual teachings of the prophets of the restoration? What else could they be hiding? Why do they not trust me to take the information and come to my own logical conclusion? These are questions that have consumed my mind and notwithstanding my efforts, I have not found a suitable answer to any of them. The only explanation I can come up with is that the leaders do not value knowledge and intellect. They preach about the need for education but they only put forth the information they want you to see. The truth is obscured from the eyes of the members and many of them (like me) do not even know it exists until they have reason to search it out. They do not want members to find this information out of fear that they will discover the truth that they have been trying to conceal all these years.
Can a church that is not open and honest with its members be what it claims to be? To that question, I have to answer, no. I recently read a quote that touched my soul and took away the confusion I was experiencing. The quote is as follows:
"Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley. "Loyalty," April Conference, 2003.
To me, that statement helped me make my choice. President Hinckley did not leave any room for ambiguity. Through my studies, I no longer believed that Joseph Smith worked under divine inspiration. So, if I did not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and that he translated the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham, then in my mind, the church could not possibly be true.
With that said, after much consideration, we have decided to have our names removed from the records of the church and have sent the appropriate resignation letter this week. Continued association with an organization that we no longer believe to be true and that does not act in the best interest of its members is something that we can not, in good conscience, do.
I want you to know that our opinion regarding the church does not in any way change our feelings for you. We believe the church can be a positive place to raise a family and that its members try very hard to live their lives according to the teachings of the Savior. We have many friends in the church and know them to be good people. We love and respect each and every one of you and hope that this decision does not affect our relationship. The reasons listed in this letter are but a small portion of what we have found to be in contradiction to our core beliefs. Should anyone have questions regarding anything written here or our reasons for leaving, I am open to talking with you in a spirit of love and understanding.
We are at peace with our decision and are exploring our faith outside of Mormonism. As we search for another church, we are continually blessed to find people who have opened their hearts to us without exception. Amy’s relationship with God is stronger then ever and Megan has developed a greater desire to learn about Jesus and follow his example. I am trying to redefine God’s role in my life and find myself going between being Agnostic and Christian. I have opened a new world of possibilities and I know it will take time to find my path. I can honestly say that we have never been happier as a family and we feel closer then ever.
It is my hope that you will all have peace and happiness in your life. I love you all and can not wait to see you during the Easter holiday.
Love, Doug

It is my hope that they know that this letter was sent out of love and a desire to be upfront and open with them about my belief in the religion of my childhood.

Why did I not see this before?

For so many years, I plodded along in the Mormon Church because it was where I was "supposed" to be. I finally got tired of that and two years ago, I chose to go inactive to give myself a need break from the culture of the church, which I hate. During that time, I began to read about the history of the church and found some things that opened my eyes to a completely different side of the church then I had ever seen before. My whole life, I believed in the basic teachings of the church but never had a great "with every fiber of my being" testimony. I always though something was not right about the Golden Plates and some of the visions Joseph Smith had. It seems that my doubts were valid. I have found so many things that go against what I have always been taught. The purpose of this blog is to give me a forum in which I can express my views of the church and its doctrine. This is not an anti-Mormon blog. I remain respectful of the church and those in it and I think they do tremendous good throughout the world. It is however a place for me to point out valid points of conflict I have found through my studies. I believe in looking at both sides of an argument and letting people come to their own conclusions. I hope you find what I write insightful and informative. Please feel free to comment and share with me your thoughts.