They Can’t Have It Both Ways

A friend of mine asked that I write a post about this topic so, Lunar Quaker, this one is for you.

For the past few years the LDS church has really made a strong push to promote themselves as being part of Christianity.

According to Webster, Christianity is…

"the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies."

Those who are part of Christianity are referred to as “Christians”.

Mormons claim to be “Christian” because they believe in Jesus Christ but those in the Christian community point to many reasons they should not be considered as such and by pure definition, Webster agrees. That is not the topic of this post but definitely worth further discussion in the near future.

This post is actually being written to talk about the LDS church and how they have responded to the FLDS issue that is going on in my “backyard”. Below, are two clips from LDS spokesmen regarding the separation they wish to make between themselves and the fundamentalist groups that practice polygamy.





In both statements, the men have asked for total separation of the term “Mormon” from that of any fundamentalist or polygamous sect. It is important to note that there are over 200 religious groups, which are recognized by the US Government, that follow the teachings of Joseph Smith and consider the Book of Mormon to be scripture. The term “Mormon” obviously comes from the idea that the LDS church has an additional book of scripture that sets them apart from other churches. They are often called Mormons because of that simple fact. Why is it then that other churches that use the Book of Mormon can not be referred to by that name as well?

On the church website, they have listed guidelines for how they should be referred to in publications.

"While the term 'Mormon Church' has long been publicly applied to the Church as a nickname, it is not an authorized title, and the Church discourages its use.

When referring to people or organizations that practice polygamy, the terms 'Mormons,' 'Mormon fundamentalist,' 'Mormon dissidents,' etc. are incorrect. The Associated Press Stylebook notes: “The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other ... churches that resulted from the split after [Joseph] Smith’s death.”

I have two main questions regarding this issue:

1. The Mormon church wants to called “Christian” because they think they share the same basic beliefs as the groups that make up Christianity but they do not want churches who have the same beliefs as them to be referred to as “Mormon”. Does anyone else see the hypocrisy in this besides me?

2. If the LDS church discourages the use of the term “Mormon” even when referring to themselves, why all the fuss when another group claims a term they don’t really like anyways?

No matter what the church does, it will never be able to separate themselves from polygamy and those sects that split from them that still practice what Joseph Smith taught. If the LDS church wants to really make a statement regarding polygamy, they need to revoke section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants which gives the eternal law of polygamy and speaks of the fact that polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom (the highest level of Heaven). Until they do that, they will always be known as the church that practiced polygamy and still practices celestial polygamy.

As for me, from now on, I am only going to refer to the FLDS group as “Mormon Fundamentalists”.
To deny the connection is to deny reality.

So Long, Farewell - parody

While on a Post-Mormon discussion board today, a guy named “Laman & Lemon”, who has been blessed with great wit, wrote a song parody to the Sound of Music tune “So Long, Farewell”. Don’t be afraid to sing as you read it.

There's a sad sort of lying
from the books of our past
And from mo-dern research too
And up in my noggin, there a part of my mind
Is popping up to say "it's poo"
"it's poo"
"it's poo"
Mormon histr'y it tells us
"it's poo"
And logic compels us
"it's poo"
To say goodbye,

"it's poo"

to you!!


So Long, farewell, our feet are stained, good night
I'm shocked, that Joe would lie about his wives

"doot, doo da loot doot doo doot doo- doot do da loot doot doo"


So long, farewell, papyrus showed his lies
It's poo, it's poo, to you and you and you

"doot, doo da loot doot doo doot doo- doot do da loot doot doo"


So long, farewell, offended I am not,
I've ne-ver had beer, cigs, tea or champagne

"doot, doo da loot doot doo doot doo- doot do da loot doot doo"


So long, farewell, I've only "known" my wife
I leave and heave a sigh and say goodbye,
Good bye (I'll have to REALLY gird up my loins to hit THAT high note)

I'm glad to go,
The church has told me lies.
I read, I know
My spirits's on a high

"doot, doo da loot doot doo doot doo- doot do da loot doot doo"


The lies I've put to test and so must you (slowly)
So long, farewell, truth does not change, goodbye,
Goodbye,
Goodbye,
Goodbye!
GOODBYE!!!!! (final goodbye is done by the member/leaders. I doubt they will have the personality to do it)

I love humor like this!

Humanitarian Aid

Since I was a kid, I remember seeing reports between sessions of General Conference about how much good the church was doing around the world, in regards to humanitarian aid. I was proud to be part of a church that gave so much to those in need. I assumed, as the true church, that our giving was beyond comparison. I was on LDS.org the other day and ran into information about the church humanitarian aid donations that I thought was both interesting and sad.

Total church Membership – 12,868,606

Countries receiving humanitarian aid – 163

Humanitarian Cash Donations Since 1985 to 2007 – 259.8 million

Humanitarian material assistance since 1985 – 750.9 million

Total Humanitarian aid between 1985 to 2007 - $1,010,700,000

At first glance, it looks like a large sum of money. That is over 1 billion given in money and material since 1985 (22 years). I did some further math to break it down into something I could wrap my mind around. Here is what I came up with.

Aid given per year - $45,940,909.09

Per month - $3,828,409.09

Per member - $78.54 over 22 years ($3.57 per year)

Even in 1985, when I was 7 years old, I gave more than that to the church by way of tithing and fast offerings. Every Christmas, my 6 year old daughter gives more than $4.00 to the Red Cross just by dropping money into a red pail each and every time she walks past one. As an adult, I gave thousands a year and there are those that make enough to give tens of thousands to the church. Where is all that money going? The Mormon church does not release its financial records, which is another post for another day, so we cannot really know how much money they bring in and how much goes out. According to this Time Magazine article, the LDS church brings in around $5.2 Billion in tithing each year. If that is true, then the church gives less than 1% of the tithing it receives to humanitarian aid. In my opinion, that is not nearly enough.

I wanted to put this into perspective so I have looked up the charitable donations of other prominent businesses to see where they stand in comparison.

Target – “5% of our income goes to support education, social services, and the arts – which adds up to $3 million a week.” (That is $156 million a year, over 3 times what the church gives annually.)

Nike – “In fiscal years 2005 and 2006, Nike contributed more than $100 million in cash and products to nonprofit partners around the world.”


Wells Fargo – “In 2005, Wells Fargo contributed a record $95.2 million to over 15,000 non-profits nationwide. We thank our team members, who give hundreds of thousands of hours as volunteers, working to improve the well-being and economic self-sufficiency of our communities.”


Microsoft – “Sept. 21, 2006 — Today at Microsoft Corp.’s annual company meeting, Microsoft announced that the company has surpassed a mark that will not show up on a stock ticker or retail shelves. Since 1983, Microsoft and its employees have given more than $2.5 billion in cash, services and software to nonprofits around the world through localized, company-sponsored giving and volunteer campaigns.” (Double what the LDS church has done in basically the same amount of time.)

Now, I understand that Microsoft is a “super company” but Target, Nike and Wells Fargo all outdid the Mormon church. In a time where all we hear about is corporate greed, we see that what we are told can be deceiving. I have to tip my hat to those businesses and corporations who feel a moral responsibility to give back to the same communities that make then what they are and also to areas around the world that are in need. Certainly there are others that I did not look at that do the same.

The part that bothers me the most is that I have heard many times and very recently, “I don’t give to other charities because I already give my 10% to the church and they distribute it to charities they trust.” Unfortunately, according to their own statistics, only about $4 of their donations actually make it anywhere. That brings me to the point of this post.

Hey, Tommy Monson, where does all of the rest of the money go? I think you’ve got some explaining to do.

Tales from a 6yr old…setting Grams straight.

Tonight my wife told me a story that I find very humorous and I just have to share it. While painting with our 6yr old daughter, the subject of church came up. It is not something that we have talked to her about very much except to correct a few points of Mormon doctrine, mainly the Word of Wisdom. We have been impressed on how fast she as adapted to her new teachers and is learning a lot so we keep focused on new beliefs rather then old ones.

She told Amy, in a very adult way; about a conversation she had a couple of weeks ago with my mother “Grams” who is a firm believer in the LDS church. The dialog went something like this…

Daughter: Grams, why do Mormons think they are the “only true church”?
Grams: Well, every church believes they are the “one true church”.
Daughter: No they don’t.
Grams: Sure they do.
Daughter: Christians don’t believe that because there are so many of them and they don’t think they are the “one true church”. It’s wrong to believe that there is only one true church.
Grams: Where did you hear that from?
Daughter: My mom and dad.


She then proceeded to tell Amy that she hears us talk about church stuff while she is in the other room coloring. Apparently, she has become a good listener and is able to absorb and understand more then I thought. When did that happen? She has shown that she can think about and digest more advanced information so I think it is time to be a bit more open and upfront with her regarding my thoughts on Mormonism. She told Amy that she knows that I don’t believe in God and does not understand why.

Is it wrong to take such pleasure in seeing your kid stand up to your own mom like you wish you would of done at her age an even older?


I could not be prouder of my free thinker! If I had one wish, it would be that she would grow up knowing how to think and act for herself; rooting her beliefs in fact and faith, having properly educated herself on a variety of topics. She has shown me how strong she can be when equipped with knowledge and I now take it upon myself to make sure she is properly equipped with the skills needed to use that wonderful brain of hers.

Looks like it is time for our Daddy-Daughter snow cone outing so I can give her a glimpse into my mind and heart, while hopefully passing on some wisdom she will find valuable enough to carry with her for the rest of her life.

Mormon Scripture

The LDS church has 4 books of canonized scripture. They include The Bible (King James Version), The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price. The last three were of course brought to light during the life of Joseph Smith. Below is a brief intoduction into each.

The Bible they use is the standard King James Version because they believe that it is the most accurate English translation. It has been painstakingly cross-referenced to the other books in the canon and has their own summary before each chapter which I will show you an example of in the next post. Joseph Smith began to correct the KJV due to many perceived errors. He died before he could finish this work. I am not a biblical scholar so I do not know if his claims to errors are valid so I will not comment on that. I do however, find it odd that no Mormon Prophet since his death has found it necessary to pick-up where he left off and finish his corrections.

The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel. The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”(Introduction of the BoM)

The Doctrine and Covenants is a collection of divine revelations and inspired declarations given for the establishment and regulation of the kingdom of God on the earth in the last days. Although most of the sections are directed to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the messages, warnings, and exhortations are for the benefit of all mankind. Doctrine and Covenants is unique because it is not a translation of an ancient document, but is of modern origin and was given of God through his chosen prophets for the restoration of his holy work and the establishment of the kingdom of God on the earth in these days.(Introduction of D&C)

The Pearl of Great Price is a selection of choice materials touching many significant aspects of the faith and doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These items were produced by the Prophet Joseph Smith and were published in the Church periodicals of his day.

Following is a brief introduction to the present contents:

Selections from the Book of Moses. An extract from the book of Genesis of Joseph Smith’s Translation of the Bible, which he began in June 1830.

The Book of Abraham. A translation from some Egyptian papyri that came into the hands of Joseph Smith in 1835, containing writings of the patriarch Abraham.

Joseph Smith—Matthew. An extract from the testimony of Matthew in Joseph Smith’s Translation of the Bible.

Joseph Smith—History. Excerpts from Joseph Smith’s official testimony and history, which he prepared in 1838

The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A statement by Joseph Smith published in the Times and Seasons March 1, 1842
(Introduction of TPoGP)

I know that the idea of scripture in addition to the Bible is something that non-Mormons don’t understand so the next few posts will address the LDS justification for having such scriptures.

The Word of Wisdom and the Bible

I was spending some time on a Mormon message board and someone asked if there were any Biblical references to the Word of Wisdom or other laws restricting the consumption of certain foods and drinks. Now, I admit that I do not know very much of the Bible so I hope I get this right. If not, please correct me. In the Old Testament, you have the rules about eating only “clean” animals and things like that, but that was part of the Law of Moses. It is my understanding that Jesus did away with the Law of Moses during his ministry. With that said and keeping in mind the question about the WoW, read this passage of the KJV in Matthew 15.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

The LDS church teaches that if you eat or drink certain things such as wine, coffee and tea, you will distance yourself from God and lose the influence of the Holy Ghost. Doing so makes it to where a member is no longer in good standing in the church and, in many cases, cannot participate in communion or holding positions in the church. It always keeps them from going to the Temple which is only reserved for those members who follow all of the commandments of God as revealed by his modern prophets for “no unclean thing can dwell with God”.

D&C 109
20 And that no unclean thing shall be permitted to come into thy house to pollute it;
21 And when thy people transgress, any of them, they may speedily repent and return unto thee, and find favor in thy sight, and be restored to the blessings which thou hast ordained to be poured out upon those who shall reverence thee in thy house.

If you contrast that idea with what Jesus taught in the New Testament, you see something completely different. You see a God that does not care what you put into your body but rather, what you let come out of it. He taught that a person’s heart, mind and soul were more important than a glass of wine. Shoot, Noah got drunk on more than one occasion but that did not stop God from calling him to be a prophet because he knew what was in his heart.

Why then does Mormonism put so much credence in the WoW? I think it is a very easy way to “measure” a person’s loyalty to the church and control its members through social pressure. The Pharisees did the same thing and in return they received a rebuking which I think Jesus would give to the LDS leaders today if he were here.

A follow-up post about TRUTH (Part 3)

Alright, one more. This one needed its own space.

The religion of God embraces every fact that exists in all the wide arena of nature, while the religions of men consist of theory devoid of fact, or of any true principle of guidance; hence the professing Christian world are like a ship upon a boisterous ocean without rudder, compass, or pilot, and are tossed hither and thither by every wind of doctrine.
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v10 p166

If God embraces EVERY fact that exists, that would have to include areas such as the many forms of science that exist like Geology, Anthropology and Linguistics. Keeping that in mind, take a look at the following teachings from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

"As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do -- that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years.
"He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.
Oliver B. Huntington speaking of Joseph Smith in the 1892 LDS publication The Young Woman's Journal, p. 263

Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? When we view its face we may see what is termed "the man in the moon," and what some philosophers declare are the shadows of mountains. But these sayings are very vague, and amount to nothing; and when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v10 p166

Typical Mormon response: “They were speaking as men, not as prophets when they said these things.”

Brigham Young: I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve.
Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses v13 p95

Obviously, there are not men living on the moon. Science has disproven that. Based on this obscure teaching and other things that have since been disproven like the translation of the Book of Abraham and the existence of items mentioned in the Book of Mormon, it is my opinion that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young would teach things that they never imagined could be disproven. Back in those days, they could not even imagine that a car would be invented, much less, a rocket that could take us to the moon. Since they never thought it could be proven wrong, they had no reservations about making things up that would grab the attention of their followers and make them look prophetic.

When Joseph “translated” the Book of Abraham, no one really knew what they said so he was free to make them say whatever he wanted and no one would know the difference. It was not till many years later that linguists began to decipher the hieroglyphics and understand what the papyri he used really said. By then, the church already had too much invested in the Pearl of Great Price and still has, for the most part, ignored the findings of those that have studied them and have clearly shown that Joseph was not even close to disclosing their true meaning.

The Book of Mormon is full of things like this. I am working on posting about that but it is still down on the list.

So the point of this post is this. If God’s church embraces every fact as stated above, then the LDS church, who claims to be God’s only church, should take these scientific facts and openly discount the validity of the Book of Abraham and other church scripture and beliefs that have been shown to go against modern findings. To my knowledge, it has never come close to doing so.