Tuesday, May 27, 2008

Please, I would love to know…

So, one thing I keep hearing is that so many of you True Believing Mormons have already seen everything on this blog but have come to a different conclusion then I have. Now, just let me say that I totally respect your right to choose your beliefs and understand that there are many who are completely happy in Mormonism. What I don’t get is how, knowing all the negative aspects of church history, doctrine, culture, and the character of those you hold in such great honor, you still manage to come to that conclusion. I don’t see how that is possible unless you are able to do some extreme mental gymnastics. I would love to hear how you rationalize the following facts.

-There were over 5 separate accounts of the “first vision”, all of which differ from one another in some vary major ways. The first of those was not written until 1832. That is 12 years after the vision supposedly happened.

-In the years before and following the first vision, Joseph was well known for his treasure hunting excursions using a seer/peep stone that he found while digging a well with his brother.

-He then used that same seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon by putting it into a hat and then burying his head in it. With the hat pulled around his eyes, to close out all light, he then dictated what he saw.

-There are many accounts of those who helped in the translation process who confirm that the plates were not actually used while translating. They were either covered up on the table or sometimes they were even hidden in the woods outside of the home where they lived. This is completely different then the pictures you see in the manuals and teaching aids the church uses, depicting Joseph going over the plates, page by page, symbol by symbol.

-The Book of Mormon was “translated” by the gift and power of God and according to Joseph Smith, the “most correct of any book on earth”. Why then has it been changed so many times?

-The many anachronisms found in the Book of Mormon. For example: The presence of silk, steel, horses, elephants, wheat and other things that were not present in the Americas until they were brought over by the Spaniards and have not been found to exist during the time the Book of Mormon took place.

-The lack of any concrete evidence of the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

-Joseph Smith had over 30 wives. Some were as young as 14 and at least 10 were taken by Joseph from their current husbands and made his. Some of these men were sent on missions and their wives taken while they were gone.

-Joseph, on many occasions, preached about how polygamy was wrong, even though he was actually currently engaged in its practice. It was even part of the early version of the Book of Commandments (D&C) but was taken out when section 132 was added.

-Joseph lied to Emma about his plural wives and some were the very women who lived with them as her helpers.

-Even after the Official Declaration in 1890, stopping the practice of polygamy, President Wilford Woodruff, personally condoned and sanctioned other plural marriages until 1904.

-Brigham Young, as well as other “prophets” taught that people of color were part of an inferior race, that slavery was “a divine institution”, and that anyone who mixed with their seed should be killed on the spot. According to many, they will “never hold the priesthood”.

-Even though Joseph Smith revealed the temple ceremony and said it should never be changed, it has under gone multiple revisions, taking out parts that made it more acceptable by the members of today. Some of those things are death oaths, the depiction of a protestant minister doing the work of Satan and more recently, the way the washing and anointing are done.

-These ceremonies are directly related to those done by the Masons which Joseph became a part of only months before he “revealed” them.

-The Book of Abraham translation has been proven a fraud and the actual papyri Joseph used to translate the book is actually a common Egyptian burial scroll called the Book of Breathings. Joseph’s translation does not come close to the real meaning of the text and pictures. The Book of Abraham is still used to this day despite the evidence against its validity.

If the church has nothing to hide, why then are these issues not discussed in greater detail? Why does the church tell their teachers and instructors to only teach and discuss the “faith promoting” side of the gospel and history? Is the truth not important to them?

I would love to know what you do to believe in the LDS church despite these things because I can not. If you care to dispute some of these points, please do so with intelligent, thought out points and be sure to site your sources.

Off Topic: Those who insist on harassing my wife because of the things I have written on this blog need to either get a life or enough guts to come to me about the issues you have with its contents. This is where I voice MY opinion and she has nothing to do with what I write and does not see it till I post it. If you have a problem with what is on this blog, you have two choices, either stand up for what you believe, using intellectually sound opinion and sources or leave it alone and go do your home/visiting teaching.


  1. You put a lot into your post. Why is it important for you to know and have already made your mind up? The fundamental source of understanding what we present does not come from any human being but from the Holy Ghost. In order for you to get a confirmation of what we present you have to be teachable, open and willing. Are you?

  2. I have read your blog soy yo and a lot of other ex mormon blogs and the TBM responses and it seems to me that no amount of evidence is going to sway a TBM.

    I think that they have faith in "faith." And believe that the solution to any problem is to believe more.

    It seems to me that to a TBM it doesn't matter whether mormonism is actually true, but only that it is true to them as the south park clip so clearly points out.

    So there is an unbridgeable chasm between the mormons and the ex-mormons which is their concept of TRUTH. The one thinks that BELIEF requires TRUTH, the other that TRUTH requires BELIEF.

  3. WOW! good point "pops" I think you have hit the nail on the head. I couldn't agree with you more.

    "truth is not determined by how many people believe in it" R. Ellis

  4. Anonymous #1

    Thank you for acknowledging the effort and time it takes to put together information in an intelligent way. You act like I was never a part of Mormonism. I spent 29 years in the LDS church trying to accept the Mormon gospel but the “burning in the bosom”, as many describe the feelings of the spirit, cannot be the only source of your knowledge. That same feeling is what convinces Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Hindu, and other Christian churches that what they have is true as well. If all of these groups and more have the same feeling of the spirit, then there has to be something else that confirms truth, like facts. If it is just based on the spirit then the LDS church cannot claim to be the “one and only true church” because they are not the only ones who have such feelings.

    My desire to know how you rationalize those facts stated is to try to catch a glimpse into a world I cannot understand. Since you have not presented anything that would explain even 1 of the issues I brought to the table, I assume you cannot and as a result you have suspended all rational thinking and replaced it with blind faith. That is the only reasonable explanation I can come up with that would allow someone to virtually ignore a very questionable start to a church that has since done its best to pretend most of it never happened.

    Has the Holy Ghost confirmed to you that it was ok for Joseph Smith to take the wives of faithful men?

    If Monson came to you and said that the Lord wanted to implement the practice of polygamy again and that God told him that he was to take your wife as his own or he would face utter destruction by an angel with a flaming sword, would you go along with it? That is what Joseph did.

    Has it told you that it was ok that he lied about practicing polygamy for many years while preaching it behind closed doors to a select few of his friends?

    What about the incorrect translation of the Book of Abraham? Has the spirit witnessed to you that despite all the evidence to the contrary, Joseph Smith really did translate it as written?

    I am open and willing to change anything posted on my blog if you can prove to me that it is not accurate. But like I said before, that proof cannot be merely the warm fuzzy you get when you hear the song “Praise to the Man”.

    If you or anyone else would prefer to make this a private exchange, I have no problem with that. My email address can be found in the “contact me” section under my profile.

  5. Pops,
    Very well said. I can not tell you how many times I have been told, "you just have to believe". Well, I refuse to believe in a church that is afraid to speak about its own shady past and recognize the white-washing of doctrine and truth over the years.

  6. As with most former members, there is also something else unsaid. I have yet to encounter someone who left he Church for "intellectual" reasons. When we finally get to the real story, they left after Church disciplne or they never had a testimony or they had one and lost it because, in the end, they had grown so far away from Church teachings they were a member in name only.

    The Church doesn't publish such statistics, but most former members I have encountered feel compelled to justify their behavior or want to shift blame away from themselves. As often as not they are currently living with someone they are not lawfully married to, engage in detrimental sex practices or have become ensnared with the law in some way and been ex'ed. I have yet to find anyone who did not fit one of the above.

    I suppose there may have been someone who left for other reasons but I have yet to come across him/her. But that is just my personal experience. Never have I even heard of someone leaving the Church who wasn't complelled. Sometime maybe I will find one. But in every case, they blame the Church or thier bishop, or their stake president or some one. Blame is the common thread. Blame the other guy but take no reponsiblity themselves. Is your situation any different? If it is, I would like to know about it. The story is getting so old that a new wrinkle would be welcome.

  7. Once again, I am faced with the idea that it is not possible to leave the LDS church because of doctrinal or historical issues. Members actually believe this because I know one of the general authorities talked about it during general conference earlier this year, but seriously, do you not know how to think for yourselves?

    Rather than actually addressing the issues I have laid in front of you, you resort to back-handed personal attacks that question my integrity and motives as a way of avoiding answering real questions about your religion. Should I take your inability or hesitation to address the facts I put before you as an admission that they are valid concerns for which you have no real response?

    I’m in a good mood today so let’s take a look at your list of reasons to leave the church and see if I fall into any category. I did not get ex’ed, my wife and I did not move in together before we were married and we did not have sex until then either, I don’t put her in leather and chains if that can be considered a “detrimental sex practice” (although I probably would not mind it if she did that to me) nor am I gay. I was only arrested once but that was on my mission and I was on the “Lord’s errand” so it is ok. I don’t blame those in the church for my lack of education about the church. I think they could do more to make it acceptable to do proper research on the church but I put blame on myself for not having to balls to do what I did sooner. You see, in order to do the research necessary to find some of this information, you have to read books that are not part of current LDS curriculum. Most of them are products of the church but members are encouraged to only focus on current manuals and the scriptures. I guess in that sense I did go against my leaders counsel. I was only “compelled” to leave the church because I could no longer affiliate myself with an organization that I think is based on the teachings of false prophets and that goes against my personal ethics. That leaves the loss of my testimony. I think it goes without saying that someone no longer has a testimony if they choose to leave the Morg. So I guess I fit that part of your assumption.

    Now, the real question is why did I lose my testimony? Was it because I wanted to sin? No. Was it because I could not live up to gospel standards? No. I lost my testimony because I read the parts of church history that are not shown to the general members unless they go looking for it. I lost my belief in the church because I read about too many things that I don’t think God would condone. My testimony shattered when I saw how there is no real proof that anything Joseph Smith did was real. In fact, the evidence showing it was all made up is far greater than that showing it was legitimate. It has been said that the entire church rests on the idea that Joseph really did see God and Jesus and that he really did translate the Book of Mormon and that if he did not do those things, then he is a fraud and should be exposed for it. I have come to the conclusion that he was a fraud and nothing he did has any merit. Following that line of thinking, the church, who stands on that fact, cannot by their own admission, be anything but a fraud either and is not of God as it claims to be.

    So, I guess I am the first ex-Mormon you know (even though I’m not sure if I know you) that has left because of actual "intellectual" reasons as you put it. If you read my blog, I think you will find I am rather candid about my reasons for leaving and don’t shy away from doing my part to expose the real origins of Mormonism.

    Maybe in your next comment you will try to address my questions while refraining from the personal attacks and sticking to the topic at hand.

  8. bravo! bravo!

    well said soy yo.

    You are man of great integrity. You take responsibility for your actions. So I would have to say that you don't fit into any of the molds this anon is trying to push you into. Because even the testimony was there at times in your life.

    Your wife doesn't fit into any of the molds either. I guess you could say you guys "broke the molds."

    Way to go! I'd say you pulled another great one out of the hat, but I wouldn't want to compare you with Joseph Smith.

  9. Seems that in all of the arguments you are getting against what you are saying are not being backed up with actual facts, such as the ones you are providing for others to view and look up for themselves. They are more personal attacks with no leg to stand on.

    The fact that people are CHOOSING ON THEIR OWN to hit this blogspot and read what you have written has much merit on its own.

    See, they keep coming back to read it, even if they do not agree with it.

    Are they possibly itching under the collar?

  10. This is generally what happens. When you present something that does not paint the LDS church in a positive light but is backed up with facts, rarely will anyone address the information. Most, but certainly not all, will resort to Ad Hominem attacks to avoid the real issue and try to paint the person presenting the “negative” information as a bitter ex-Mormon. It does not matter how valid of a point you have, they are just interested in finding any excuse to disregard the information presented. If they can only do that by attacking you personally then that is what they will do. I have yet to have someone give me clear and substantiated information to refute any of these points against the church. I still have not seen anyone answer my question has to how they can continue to believe in the church despite these facts either. I honestly would like to hear their explanation on how they are able to do that.

  11. anonymous,

    You should have stopped at "they had one and lost it" and your description would have matched my experience. But you kept going. Anyway, I've left the church because what I was reading about church history did not match up with what I had been taught from my youth, all the way through my mission and on into getting married in the temple and so forth. Basically, I read the history of the church from the "History of the Church" and "Journal of Discourse and realized that nothing was what it seemed. I had a testimony of something that wasn't real. Could I have a testimony of the things I was reading? Well, the idea that the "one true church" could paint a different picture about the facts behind the church made it hard for me to trust the church. So, I began a journey that took me through self discovery about what I thought about things from my own experience and in the end, I decided that I didn't need the church. So, losing a testimony is a valid reason as well. It happens, and I've meet many people who couldn't come to terms with the truth about the church.

  12. Travis, thanks for sharing. It looks like we had very similar experiences that helped us distance ourselves from Mormonism. You know as well as I do that a lot of post-Mormons made their way out in the same way we did. I think if members took the time to actually listen to our side of the story instead of interrupting to bare testimony to us, they would understand us more.

    I hope you continue to visit and comment often.

  13. Interesting choices you make in your new found happiness and determination ... Although I wish you well with your new choice of faith I take exception to some of youru distorted logic and ill informed though process. I ask myself -- why is this man so intent on destroying or tearing down the LDS religion ? I mean it is like the girlfriend one had ..the one who he thinks lied or cheated on him so he breaks up with her and then devotes enourmous amounts of time and energy on tearing her down -- destroyingher ? why though ? he made a decision to leave her.. shouldn't he be content witht hat decision and be happy moving forward in life instead of focusing on the past? You can look at any denomination -- any faith - -mormon - gateway church with pastor morris - catholics -- even islam and atheism and tear it down with fallacies and its history. perhaps those fallaciues are part of the test of faith -- perhaps they reveal a truth ..who can say ? that is up to the believer. or non-believer as it may be....
    I have studie the history of the church -- the history of many religions and there are issues with all of them -- at the end of the day .....in order to be happy one has to live in accordance with what one believes. if i believe in the law of chastity and the word of wisdom -- i have to abide by them or else i will not be happy-- then i will have two choices...either repent and adjust my life in order to life up to what i believe or .. or I can change my beliefs. I can change what I choose to believe in and live according to that new belief to find happiness. you appear to be lost somewhere in the middle.

    for me it boiled down to the fact of faith. i believe what i believe based on my experiences, study, prayer and choices. and when it is all said and done ...the LDS curch will in no way take me away from jesus christ or his atonement simply because the
    lds faith is probably 5 times more stricter in its mandates than any other religion. so what will i have missed out on if i was wrong ? some alcohol ? weed? tobacco ? maybe some adventurous sex? I will pass.

    Attending a church like Gateway is basically admitting there is no one truth - -there is no power or authority of God-- yet you still practice baptism ? The church was founded 9 years ago...so at the end of the day -- how will me being lds take me farther away from Christ than you being at Gateway -- that is the question..

  14. ona side note... based on your rational for leaving the church -- due to your vast intellectual research ...based on that logic alone -- you will never find a church to be proven true or real with facts.. you can question the bible -- the history of every religion will reveal fallacies - errors - problems ... which would leave you to be either agnostic or atheist.

  15. I am no more intent on exposing the true past of the Mormon church as your missionaries are in converting people to it. Just as they teach that other churches don’t have the truth, I am teaching that Mormons don’t have the truth either. If you take the time to look at even a portion of my blog you will easily see that I am a “hopeful” Agnostic, so while I do not believe the Mormon church is true, I also have a hard time accepting any church as having all the truth. I still have a natural desire to believe but can not find it in me to trust another man to tell me what the best way to do it is. Until I discover what my personal spiritual path needs to be, I will remain Agnostic. At this point though, I can not confirm or deny that God exists, but I hope to one day find a greater power I can trust in again.

    It looks as if you have come from my wife’s blog because you mentioned Gateway. Have you seen any mention of a church on my blog? I’ll answer that for you, no. The reason you have not is because I do not affiliate myself with any church. My wife, also has not decided to join any church although there are a few she enjoys attending. Gateway happens to be one of them. On occasion, I will attend with her out of support but she also understands when I choose not to. The churches she and I attend are non-denominational or what many call a “Bible Church”. They are independent and are therefore not as structured as most denominations. I actually find the way the worship to be quite free. People are encouraged to focus on their relationship with Christ and not on rules. They believe in being good people and I have seen more truly Christ-like people in the few I have attended then in all my years in the LDS church.

    I am aware that all churches have a history but very few make the claims the Mormon church does and that makes a big difference.

    I’m not sure you can equate strictness of rules to salvation. The law of Moses was obviously a very strict law, but it was put in place as a reminder of what Jesus would do. He fulfilled the law and instituted a new law which was very simple. Love of God and of others became the two greatest commandments. That sounds pretty simple to me. There is no mention of temple endowments, no word of wisdom, just love for others and trying to be the best person possible. That was his main focus. He showed love to those who were shunned by society. He ate with sinners and cared not what others though of him. More rules do not make you more righteous; Christ even told the Pharisees that on more then one occasion. It is my belief that rule often take people farther from Christ by putting more of the focus on regulations rather then on Him where it should be.

    Baptism in most non-denominational churches is not required for salvation. It is a demonstration of your belief in Christ and a way to affirm your faith and desire to follow Him.

    If you are gong to use how old a church is to establish truthfulness, then almost any major religion of the world today would have more truth to it then Mormonism because they were around before 1830.

    The answer to your last question is actually very simple. It is an objective question but I will give you my point of view and I’m sure yours will be different. While you are worried about following all of the rules of your religion, trying to do enough to magnify your callings, keep your temple recommend and hopefully make it into the Celestial Kingdom, not really knowing if you have done enough. Others will be focusing all of their time on their personal relationship with Jesus Christ which is where salvation really lies.

    Now perhaps you can enlighten me once again as to how you can rationalize the points I mentioned in the original post since having faith and praying does not answer my original question.

  16. anonymous, just curious. Do you think it is a sin to drink a beer or a glass of wine or smoke a pipe? Do you really think that is a sin?

    Oh and I don't think the LDS church is 5 times stricter than Islam...unless the LDS church is now killing apostates.

  17. Bioshop Rick(love the name)
    Mormons used to kill apostates, through blood atonement.

    You can not call out someone and wish them well at the same time. That is so bi-polar. Also, you act like you unlocked some big mystery by researching soy yo's new church.
    The thing mormons don't get about christian churches is that you don't believe they are TRUE. You follow the Lord NOT A CHURCH. You owe nothing to a church. You owe it all to God. So you can freely go to whichever church you would like.
    I have heard so many people say they believe in the Mormon church. How about saying you believe in GOD and not a church?

    While God is a God of great detail, He spoke in parables for all to understand. He is not a God of confusion.

    The mormon church has so many things you have to do(for salvation & exhaltation) that you get wrapped up in servitude and obligation and you FORGET to have a relationship with GOD.

    I sure hope you find peace, cause you are one unhappy person and it comes through with every word you write.

    Soy yo-

    You are a superb writer. Thanks for uncovering such a lie.

  18. Thank you for the compliment, I’m glad you enjoy it. One thing I think few will understand is this is not a labor of love for me. I do not always enjoy writing on this subject because it often brings back hurtful feelings that I have been subjected to for years. One of my favorite quotes says…

    "We do not write because we want to; we write because we have to."
    -- W. Somerset Maugham

    I feel compelled to continue this work despite the pain it causes me because I think others have the right to know what the church has done to virtually erase its history in attempt to seem more main-stream. I’m just glad some find this blog informative and helpful.

    Bishop Rick – Thank you for your comment. I have seen you on other blogs and think you have good insight. You have helped me on more than one occasion through the things you write. Your comments are welcome here any time.

  19. I have read all 19 comments on this blog post and I have yet to see anyone answer even just 1 of your questions. One person answered that they chose to make the decision based on their faith. I'm very curious myself- why are these questions circumvented, why aren't there any answers?

    I think the thing that upsets me the most is how you and your wife are being treated through all of this, and if my intuition is correct, I know where the majority of those attacks are coming from. That, to me, is one of the most anti-Christian acts ever. Aren't we as Christians supposed to be ever loving and non judgemental? What happened to that?
    - friend of Ames and intrigued reader of your blog

  20. I also want to add to the first anonymous poster that there are readers of his blog that are also trying to make these decisions, so answers would be nice to have. It doesn't matter if he's already made up his mind or not- this is his blog and he has opened it up to the public. I'm sure he has readers from all aspects, though the only readers that seem to be Mormon attack him and his beliefs, yet refuse to give the rest of us any insight.
    I've had questions all my life about certain things that he has mentioned on this blog, and have yet to find anyone to give me a valid answer. Instead I'm told to just have faith. As I age, I tend to err more on the side of logic, not faith.

  21. Onthefence

    Thank you for your comment and I hope you continue to read.

    You don't see answers to my questions because they have all been taught that all they need is faith. Most don't think for themselves and cannot wrap their minds around the fact that it is very possible that they have been following a religion based on lies. It is a scary thing to come to terms with and I understand that but I would not be able to continue believing in an organization that has lied to me time and time again. They are told not to read "anti-Mormon" literature because this is the kind of stuff they will find. Oddly enough, the most damning literature was written by the same leaders they admire and hold in such great regard.

    I posted this in a comment on my wife's blog but I think it goes well with what you just said about the treatment we are receiving from Mormons we once considered

    Alma 1:21
    Now there was a strict law among the people of the church, that there should not any man, belonging to the church, arise and persecute those that did not belong to the church, and that there should be no persecution among themselves.

    Something for them to think about.

  22. All I want to say is this,

    I respect your personal decision to leave the church. While I may not agree with it, it is after all your decision. But I do wonder why you start your blog by saying you are not bashing Mormonism, when that is precisely what you are doing. For what other purpose is there to right this blog?

    I am a very active member of the church and have read much of the same literature that you read in making your decision. I will not pretend to have all the answers, I will only tell you that my testimony of the gospel is based off of the the answers that I received to my personal prayers and off of personal experiences throughout my life. You may not like that answer and quite honestly you don't have to. It is my testimony and it is what has brought me years of happiness in the church.

    Many of the people leaving comments are saying that Mormons should "believe in God/Christ" and not the church. To that I would simply say I believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    You talk about the strictness of the LDS church and I would advise that the WoW and law of chastity are given as advice to all that will allow us to keep our bodies and minds clean. I do not believe somebody that smokes or drinks is less of a christian than me, but I will tell you I firmly believe I am doing less damage to my body and mind then they are. That is however just my opinion.

    I would like to challenge one remark you made. On your blog you provide the defintion of Christianity. Did you perhaps look up the definition of Christian? I thought it would be interesting to see what all it says. I went to Merriam Webster's online dictionary and the first definition for Christian is as follows; 1 a: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ. That is the entire sentence. I would follow it up by saying that Mormons are Christians if by no other way than by the fact that we profess belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    While I would prefer to remain anonymous, I will tell you that I am the husband of one of your wife's friends. I have met you and I know your wife pretty well. I can only hope that it was Amy's deicision to follow your lead as the patriarch of the family and not an ultimatum or fear of losing you that led her away.

    In any case, your decision is made. In all sincerity I wish you the best of luck in your future and in your search/journey. I hope you do not view this comment as an attack as it is not intended as one.

  23. If you consider writing about the non-faith promoting parts of church history and doctrine “bashing” then I guess I am guilty as charged. I consider it exposing the lesser known parts that everyone deserves to know.

    The LDS church has gone to great lengths in recent years to convince the rest of the religious world that they are Christian. What is interesting about that is they used to claim the exact opposite.

    "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."
    - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199

    "We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense. Men talk about civilization; but I do not want to say much about that, for I have seen enough of it. Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."
    - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167

    "Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell.”
    - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 5:89

    This is but a few of the remarks made by leaders that do not speak kindly of Christians but now they want to be part of them?

    In an April 2005 conference talk "The Great Things Which God Has Revealed", Hinckley himself points out the reasons Christians are different from Mormons. The things he talks about is the belief in the Trinity while Mormons believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings, the use of additional scripture and not just the Bible, the idea that the LDS church has the priesthood authority, the idea of “eternal families”, and baptism for the dead. He uses these beliefs to make a very evident separation between Mormons and Christians.

    I won’t argue that some parts of the WoW are good ideas to follow but I think the implementation of it is lacking. When it is discussed in the church what do they spend 98% of the time on? The same things you mentioned in your comment, coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc. The good things to eat are generally give a quick passing comment at the end of the lesson. Here is the problem with that. This Sunday, take a look around and count how many overweight people there are. I contend that I could have a glass of wine a couple of nights a week and be healthier then someone who is using food as their drug and putting themselves at a higher risk for heart disease or other issues. Out of the people you count, how many of them have temple recommends? Are they obeying the WoW just because they are abstaining from the things I mentioned above or is the WoW an overall guide for physical health?

    Amy is a grown woman and is capable of making her own decisions. She chose to continue to go to church while I was inactive for 2 years. At no time did I pressure her to stop and I remained as supportive of her as possible to the point where, months before we both decided to leave, I tried to go back and participate in the ward. The idea that women can not think for themselves and that they need a “patriarch” to tell them what to do is absurd and does not give them the credit they deserve. We have both taken very different paths as we make our way out of the Morg and different things influenced our individual decisions, but we remain supportive of each other.

    Thank your for your comment and I wish you peace and happiness for you and your family.

  24. Anonymous, I, like so many others, find it annoying that you would not address one fact that soy yo gave for reasons to leave the church. This reminds me of my granddaughter when I tell her something she has no answer for. She will reply with "I don't care," and she will say this over and over, as I try to get my point across. She is only eight, so I know she can't know everything.
    So are you saying that you do not care that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl by extorting the family with keys to the kingdom? You don't care that Joseph Smith bragged he was better than Jesus? You don't care about any of the truths that a rational person would find disturbing in researching polygamy. (Looking at the FLDS speaks volumes about the Mormons. Okay, for the record, I know that the FLDS are not "true" Mormons. They only give us a glance back to the early days of the church. The repulsion of law abiding citizens now, was the same reaction in the 1800's. Okay, maybe people in the 1800's were more shocked. And guess what? They believe in the BoM too, and feel the same spirit you touted. And yikes, they even sound like Mormons when thy speak. That has to be annoying!)

    Further more, it is not an acceptable argument to point out that other churches have skeletons in their history closet. What does that have to do with the truth of Mormonism? Why can't a believing Mormon, at one time, leave the church. strictly and only, because of research and logic? Why go on the attack if we care and you don't? If these things bother us, but not you, please respect our right to be bothered. Anonymous, just address one of the concerns listed and stop the Mormon conditioned response of "I know the church is true." You are probably saying that with your fingers in your ears and a nah, nah, nah. Nietzsche said that "Faith means the will to avoid knowing what is true," and you have certainly proved that point beyond a shadow of a doubt. Address the issues and stop the personal finger pointing. It makes it look like you don't have a leg to stand on.

  25. Mormonism began with lies. Joseph Smith was a professional con man and charlatan. And it continues down unto this day in the same vein.

    Joseph Smith plagiarized the contents of the BoM from the Bible and other books extant at that time.

    The history of the Americas that the BoM purports to set forth is unmitigated nonsense, total fabrication, not an ounce of truth in it. It makes men on the moon look pretty reasonable in comparison.

    If Utah had not become a state and remained a mormon enclave it would have been hell on earth.

    Jesus said it best, "All they that hate me love death."

    I am so happy that you were able to get out.

  26. K*tty,

    What if anonymous is an amputee that wasn't healed with a priesthood blessing?

    Now that "don't have a leg to stand on" comment doesn't sound so funny does it?

    Sorry, its 1 AM.

  27. lol about bishiop ricks no leg to stand on comment...and pops didn't spare any feelings did he?

  28. To pops: Amen!

    bishop rick, your clever name and funny leg comment made me laugh out loud. (my kind of humor) It did remind me of an incident that happened in the court room I use to work out of. The man in custody was answering the judge with nods and grunts. Finally the judge screamed at him, "What's the matter with you , cat got your tongue?" It turned out, for whatever reason, the guy was unable to speak. Awkward!

  29. I'm going anon because my best friend is an active member of the LDS church & I would hate links back to my blog, her view them & be hurt by my thoughts. Although I love my friend, her religion and her friends through her church reminds me of a cult. The whole "levels of heaven" thing just reminds me of the clan out in Calif. who put pillow cases over their heads & waited for the Haley Bop. Seriously. These are intelligent (albeit, IMO, brainwashed) individuals - how can they believe such nonsense? Utter nonsense. For someone outside of that faith (and I've tried to educate myself about it) it's creepy.

    Secret rituals, sacred temples, celestial marriages, golden plates in a hat, racism, male superiority....it SCREAMS cult (claiming to be a Christian faith - that's right...the only TRUE Christian church). Again, creepy - hide the pillow cases.

  30. When I left the LDS church, I did not feel comfortable using words like "cult" or "brainwashed" but the more I read and look at the church from my new perspective, the more I agree with those terms to describe it. Your comment was spot on in my opinion!